Two Students Stabbed at Local 26 Electrical Training Center: Bullying & Mental Health in the skilled trades

In this episode of the Sparky Life podcast, Lia Lamela and guests Dr. Talia Jackson and Douglas Jensen from the We're Not Fine podcast discuss a stabbing incident at the local 26 JATC in Manassas, Virginia. They talk about the serious issues of bullying and mental health within the construction industry, reflecting on the culture that may contribute to such tragedies.

The conversation underscores the need for a more inclusive and supportive workplace in the skilled trades. Lia's personal connection to the apprenticeship program adds depth to the dialogue about the media's portrayal and the broader implications of the Local 26 stabbing in Manassa, VA.

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Music by https://www.purple-planet.com

Transcript

Talia (00:00:00) - It's a very unpopular stance to talk about why this young man. Was in a position to even be stabbing people to begin with. Nobody wants to touch on that. Why? And the motive? And it does sound like, since, you know, insider information. I mean, like when I was thinking about today and what, what we were going to talk about, I'm like this certain vicarious trauma piece, but there's also like, we have to talk about bullying and what it does to people and the bully and the bullied and how to protect yourself from that in the workplace. I mean, I feel like, Leah, you've shown up to do this podcast because you're trying to change the culture of the industry and that that piece maybe needs to be addressed.

Lia (00:01:03) - Welcome to the Sparky Life podcast. I'm your host, Leah Lamela, and here I share skilled trades conversations with those I've met along the way. The following topics discussed in this episode contains distressing and sensitive subject matter. Listener discretion is advised. On February 13th, 2024 at 3:00 pm, two young electrical apprentices, a part of the local 26 Jay attack in Manassas, Virginia, were stabbed.

Lia (00:01:41) - Philip Brant, a 26 year old student, walked into the classroom and stabbed Elijah Safadi. I received this message from a student on site during the event. I just got off the phone with my buddy who sat next to Philip Brant. He was the last one to come into the room after the last break of the day, and ran in and stabbed Elijah. My friend was able to run past him to get out of the room, but Philip Brant's feet were apparently right at the door as he was stabbing Elijah, so he kind of jumped over him to get out of the room. End quote. The second stabbed victim, Michael Baca, was able to exit the JTC and collapsed near the dumpster. He was taken to hospital in critical condition. All three apprentices worked for Dina on the same job site. Students and coworkers claimed Philip Brandt, a quiet student. He was harassed and berated by Elijah, known to have a mouth on him in the class and on the job site. When police officers arrived at the JTC Skilled Trade School.

Lia (00:02:50) - Philip was holding a knife down by his side, standing at the front entrance of the facility. He said he needed help. The officers ordered for Philip to drop the knife when he did not do so. The officers gunned him down. Elijah and Philip died on site. I went to this apprenticeship program. I have friends who still attend. I invited Doctor Talia Jackson and Douglas Jensen from the We're Not Fine podcast to discuss this tragic event. My heart goes out to all the victims. Welcome back with me to the Sparky Live podcast, doctor Talia Jackson and Douglas Jensen. I wish that I was getting to hang out with you guys. On a more positive note. Yeah.

Douglas (00:03:37) - How are you doing and what is your relationship to any of these people? I do want to know that first.

Lia (00:03:41) - I went to school with them and I had friends at the scene when it happened.

Douglas (00:03:46) - All three of them?

Lia (00:03:48) - Yes, yes.

Douglas (00:03:50) - I'm so sorry.

Talia (00:03:52) - I'm so sorry. And it was like your school.

Lia (00:03:56) - Yes.

Lia (00:03:56) - This is the apprenticeship program that I was a part of when I began to really develop my electrical career. It started at the JTC in Manassas, Virginia. And. I love you guys. You know, I love you guys so much. I wish that I had you here on a happier note, but this is so important. And what I see that's going on in the news, no one is talking about what happened, right? Literally every news channel is a man stabbed. Two victims. One dead. The man was killed by police gunfire. And everyone is horrified. This happened, right? That's the narrative. And the only other story that I've heard is about Elijah, one of the victims of the stabbing. Who passed. And the claim is that he's a hero. And he tried to defend the students.

Talia (00:05:10) - Now I have.

Lia (00:05:12) - Friends who were physically on site who took pictures on site.

Talia (00:05:17) - Wow.

Lia (00:05:18) - Okay. More than one person, several people saying the same thing. And I haven't heard one news station mention it.

Lia (00:05:26) - And I'm like, why?

Douglas (00:05:29) - Leah, you know, what's this thing about this? There's two things about this. One is you really identified the most important piece, and that's being able to talk about what actually happened and what actually was going on. And the article that I read did talk about bullying, and yet it did talk about people coming to Elijah's rescue and saying he tried rescuing everybody else. Who knows what happened except for those there. But you have that inside scoop. So it has to be increasingly complicated for your grief process to have stories told that are not full. Number one of the information, but really don't capture the really intense and I would say very complicated piece of this.

Talia (00:06:06) - Like the why.

Lia (00:06:08) - Right. The way that this is being presented, I feel is so similar, unfortunately, to a lot of mass school shootings or something that aligns with that type of because this is a school you hear on the 911 call, they say they're referring to them as students. They are students, right? When they identify the stabber as a man, I feel like this is you're separating yourself.

Lia (00:06:35) - This is a 26 year old young gentleman who is in school. The other two were around 23. I know Elijah was 23. I don't know the age of Michael. The other stabbed victim, Michael is in critical condition. Elijah has passed away from the attack. And Philip is the gentleman who did the stabbing out there. All young. They're not. These aren't grown men in their 40s. 50s? These are young guys like college. Like this is their college. This is electrical college for us. Like this is this. This is what the union has developed, an apprenticeship program to help educate electricians to be skilled craftsmen and crafts women. And the other thing I noticed is that on the news, I'm not hearing a lot of this is a union. I don't know why you're I heard IBEW local 26, I heard that, but they're not using this language. And I'm not saying there's anything bad about being in a union. I chose to be in the union. Like I started my career here for a reason.

Lia (00:07:47) - It's just exactly what you said, Douglas. I don't feel like all the facts are being talked about, and things are being either downplayed or presented in a way that's not a full picture.

Talia (00:07:59) - Right? Well, it's a very unpopular stance to talk about why this young man. Was in a position to even be stabbing people to begin with. Nobody wants to touch on that. Why? And the motive? And it does sound like, since, you know, insider information. I mean, like when I was thinking about today and what, what we were going to talk about, I'm like this certain vicarious trauma piece, but there's also like, we have to talk about bullying and what it does to people and the bully and the bullied and how to protect yourself from that in the workplace. I mean, I feel like, Leah, you've shown up to do this podcast because you're trying to change the culture of the industry and that that piece maybe needs to be addressed. Like, why is there such a desperate need to have some sort of like establishing dominance or like a pecking order? Who's on top, who's on the bottom, whatever that is?

Douglas (00:09:08) - You know what's interesting? Leah, is the work that we've done before, both you on our podcast, but also you having us on your podcast was about increasing mental health awareness and reducing that stigma.

Douglas (00:09:19) - I want to just comment on how you talk about this. Leah, you have referenced one of the victims, and I really appreciate you identifying that because there are so many people who are victimized by this experience. Two people are dead as a result of it, one person in critical condition. But there are many victims, including yourself peripherally, as you know, you talked about, you know, vicarious trauma and secondary trauma. There's so many victims in this. I'm really sad. And, you know, going back to the question of why, you know, the three of us are here to talk about that, like why it's it's hard to talk about. And how important is it that we talk about not only what happened, but kind of as you said, Talia, you know what the ramifications of bullying are. I think there's a lot of reasons for that. You know, I, I honestly, I found myself looking at the people, I looked at all three parties to kind of see what they look like and think, all right, so where could this come from? But there's no way to guess.

Douglas (00:10:09) - And Leah, you obviously have some inside information from people who probably witnessed it. One of the things in this article that I read, though, that was really fascinating, was that there was a discussion about who might have known this was going on and how quickly it could have been taken care of prior to this event, had somebody stepped in at school to say, stop the bullying, we have to end its tracks, which is kind of my mantra about any oppressed minority. We have to stop it. We have to stop hate.

Talia (00:10:36) - Yeah, like zero tolerance, because it also it stirs up an atmosphere of being oppositional, aggressive, violent is an acceptable way to handle any sort of disagreement or issue, which is basically like six year olds on the playground. It's people who have never learned how to have quote unquote, pro-social behaviors, or they don't have any confidence in their ability to get their needs met or express themselves in a positive way, or solve any sort of argument. And so they end up being assholes and trying to establish dominance.

Lia (00:11:16) - Right, exactly. And look, the construction industry is known for hazing, imperial structures like bullying. It's known for it, the apprenticeship programs. There's a reason there's that stigma, right? It doesn't mean it's all this way. It doesn't mean it's a blanket statement. It means that it exists in this space. And if we don't talk about it and just kind of like brush it under, then nothing is going to change. That's why I'm so upset because there were many students there. We're talking, what, 20 oh class, two classes, 40 minimum okay. That were witnessed it were they're taking pictures videoing were all held up after the fact spoke to the police. No one needed to die. These deaths were completely. It's heartbreaking because it didn't have to happen. There were several points where things could have been different and. As you brought up in the article. Douglas. How is it so many students knew that Philip, the. The perpetrator, the person who took. Violent action against these other two students.

Lia (00:12:40) - Were being bullied and berated on his job site, and it was known that Elijah and Michael and and a couple others have this like click. And Philip was known in the school to be very, very quiet,, a little awkward, a loner. And so it's not that no one knew. They knew. Now, how bad was it? Well, Philip's not here to tell us. Philip was gunned down with a kitchen knife in his hand. And allegedly. And I say this allegedly because I was not there. This is what I'm being told from people who were present on the scene. He had a kitchen knife down by his side. That is what he the weapon he used to stab Elijah and Michael. And he was like a deer in headlights saying he needs help. When police showed up, he still had the knife in his hand. I don't know the full interaction, but he was gunned down by more than one officer, and we don't know what was going on with Philip. We don't know how bad it was.

Lia (00:13:57) - We don't know why he showed up with a kitchen knife that day. Did you bring it because you felt your life was threatened? Did you want to scare them? To make it stop? Was your intention to kill someone? Well, we'll never know because he's dead. He can't tell us, and he's the only one that really knows. But we do know that he was being bullied. We do know that.

Douglas (00:14:22) - You know what he was being bullied about. I'm curious. No. Just because he was awkward. Just because he might have been quiet, which is a common bullying tactic in schools.

Talia (00:14:31) - Absolutely. There's like a profile.

Lia (00:14:34) - Yes. He fit that profile well.

Douglas (00:14:36) - And the thing that I'm struck by is, you know, when you talk about the impact of bullying, Talia, you know, it's it can be depression, anxiety, if you have comorbid health issues, mental health issues, and, you know, you can't focus anymore or concentrate. I mean, this isn't an educational facility.

Douglas (00:14:51) - And oftentimes bullied kids do not do well academically, do not learn well because they're always concerned about that threat of bullying. And bullying is rough. Yeah, I'm fortunate. As a gay man, I did not experience bullying growing up. I somehow was under the radar in my small town, but I watched people and I have a really zero, as Talia knows, a very, very low if zero tolerance for watching people women, men, people of different minority groups bullied in any way, shape or form. And, you know, our culture right now is encouraging it based on our political process. And one of the candidates in particular. And, you know, Leah, the thing about it is you bet we'll never know the truth. And it's really unfortunate that there wasn't some clarity about this. I'm glad that we're witnesses to this, though, because I think about this guy as family, and I wish for them to know he was going through a hard time. Suicidality is not an entirely off the charts symptom of being bullied as well.

Douglas (00:15:44) - You start to feel bad. You start to feel powerless and hopeless, right? So don't know what was going on from it. I'm very sad that that might have been a piece of this because it's really tough sleep difficulty, I mean rage. There's so many ways that this might have shown up.

Talia (00:15:57) - Well, I mean, what you're saying is like, this didn't have to happen. Like when you think about, like, the mass shootings and mass murders and the school shoot, all of the things and you think about, I mean, it's mental health, right? The profile of people who are often I mean, right now, if we're talking about Philip, who is both the bullied and the perpetrator of the crime, right, right. Pile of people that usually tend to get bullied are they're quiet. They don't have a ton of allies and friends there. They might be a little bit awkward. They don't know how to stand up for themselves. They show a lot of emotionality when they are being bullied.

Talia (00:16:43) - So there's some sort of like the bully gets a rise out of watching someone squirm and suffer, but also the people who tend to fit the profile of the shooters or the murderers tend to be really lonely and isolated and maybe grieving a lot.

Douglas (00:17:04) - I didn't go into it, Talia, knowing that they might get murdered by the cops, or there might be people who go after them.

Talia (00:17:10) - Like they have nothing to lose.

Douglas (00:17:12) - Absolutely. And, you know, again, not knowing anything about the specifics about this, it does make it more complicated, but it's never acceptable. And it can really cause people to kind of go over that edge.

Lia (00:17:22) - No. Absolutely. And I think the key, the the main thing about what happened is that people knew that there was this conflict. However you want to describe the conflict, there was a conflict between these boys and and this young man. And it was well known. And Philip was described by many as being quiet, weird air. Quotes. And Elijah was described as being loud mouth.

Lia (00:18:00) - Jokester had a mouth on him, and there's nothing wrong with those characteristics. It's just easy to see how those different personality types can then create conflict. That's right. There are what I would call men grown adults, leaders, authority figures in this environment. And there's no way that they didn't know that this was going on or have some inkling. And again, they may not have known to the degree no one knows for what my breaking point is and what someone else's breaking point is, is totally different. And nothing, nothing excuses physical violence. Nothing, nothing you. That is not how we handle these things. But these are young guys, I would argue, not fully mentally developed young men. And they're in an environment that teaches them the leader is. The biggest guy in the room. You know, a lot of the men. The way that they handle leadership is we call them tool tossers. They flip their cards, make a big scene. You know, when, Douglas, when you're talking about how you're so lucky as a gay man, you weren't bullied.

Lia (00:19:22) - But when I look at you, you're a very masculine, intimidating figure. And you're confident I wouldn't dare bully you.

Douglas (00:19:33) - And you haven't seen my tattoo.

Lia (00:19:39) - Yeah. You got you wearing a turtleneck. Yeah.

Douglas (00:19:44) - You know, Leah, I don't want to interrupt you, but you are so beautifully talking about what you talked about with us on your podcast as well. This sociologically inclined male issue, how this profession that you're in is male dominated. But also as men, we are socialized to not have to not look weak, not look like this bullying bothers us. And yes, I am a bigger dude who fights for fun at the martial arts gym.

Lia (00:20:13) - And so.

Douglas (00:20:13) - You know, there's an interesting piece and I, I, you know, I confront bullies because I am able to do that. I don't love that dynamic. But I think we have to stomp out hate and we have to confront it, which is what we're talking about here. But I do wonder so much about the impact of this male dominated society, and particularly the school culture and this trade culture, on whether or not this guy felt like he could go to any guy and talk about this without being told, man up or don't be a pussy.

Douglas (00:20:41) - Yeah. Or whatever words that might have been coming out of their mouths, which, you know, is entirely inappropriate. You know, you said violence is inappropriate. Bullying is inappropriate. Not taking responsibility for this dynamic in that school is inappropriate. There's so many pieces of this puzzle that should not have ever happened.

Talia (00:20:57) - And I don't know, but I'm guessing that he didn't have anyone that he could talk to about this, right? That's like the mental health piece. If there's a culture around this machismo or maybe like the ego, the fragile ego and how you're presenting, don't air your dirty laundry, no one can see your vulnerabilities. I doubt he was in therapy or any of these three gentlemen, and I doubt that there was anyone at home or a friend that he could talk to about any of this. And it just like, builds and builds and builds until it feels like I'm not going to put up with this anymore.

Lia (00:21:35) - Right. And I think it's all about perception, right? He must have felt he didn't have many options.

Lia (00:21:42) - Right? Because it's not in our nature to take actions like this unless we feel desperate. There is desperation there for a reason. It is. Yeah, that.

Douglas (00:21:54) - That comment cannot be more solidified. Like you just said that so beautifully and so simply. And that's one of the realities, you know, Talia, probably you as well. I've been asked a million times, like, do I think people who kill people are saying, or do they have mental health issues? Yes, yes, I always do. So I think there's a part of this. You know, Leah, when you said that, like when you resort to those desperate measures, something bigger is going on. There's a helplessness or a powerlessness or a desperation. Was your word. Beautifully put. I think people need to hear how simple that concept is.

Lia (00:22:27) - And I went to this apprenticeship program. I was a part of it, and there are many things about it that are absolutely fabulous. And the teachers I had the same teachers that these students had did say in the class, you know, if someone's bullying you, if there's anything happening, I can only speak from my perspective.

Lia (00:22:50) - And I can tell you as a student sitting there, I felt like you were just telling me what you're supposed to say. That's right. You know, no way in hell would I actually go to them if I had an issue.

Talia (00:23:07) - And even, like, on the playground, like, everybody knows, like you could be a fifth grader and, you know, snitches get stitches.

Lia (00:23:16) - Yes. No.

Talia (00:23:17) - Like a tattletale. And it's not that safe in most environments, to be honest. No.

Lia (00:23:23) - So if you don't see the leaders leading in a certain fashion, you see this kind of aggressive imperial dog eat dog. I'm above your below structure. That's what you're going to keep perpetuating. And that is the majority of the structure within the skilled trades. That's how it's presented. And the teachers would razz and tease. And again, it's a part of that construction culture. I will never forget this. My buddy, a good friend of mine, he's a great person. Sweetest pie, most would say even a pushover.

Lia (00:24:07) - Okay, he's in the same program as me. He's done very well for himself. He's has now achieved his journeyman license. I got to say, I got mine first. Hee hee hee. Little competition. Do you got your back? Well, we know, we know.

Talia (00:24:24) - You did it first.

Lia (00:24:26) - All right, I got it. Got to put that in there. So he's a really I know him very well. We studied together, we worked together, and he got put in a leadership position. And I was a driving into work. One day he's over the phone and I hear him say to another gentleman on site, don't mess it up like you did before. Don't screw it up. And I said to him, hey. Why did you make that comment to that guy? And he's like, oh, I'm just teasing him. I'm just giving the jazz we're friends. I said, listen, I know that you're on a job site. You yelled that in front of other people while you're on the phone with me.

Lia (00:25:12) - He doesn't know who you're on the phone with. I don't think you should have made a comment like that. I think that probably make him feel really shitty, especially if he made a mistake before. You're basically blasting that to everyone on site and whoever the hell you're on the phone with.

Talia (00:25:34) - Like public shaming.

Lia (00:25:35) - Right? And he's like, no, no, no, no, I'm telling you. And I said, listen, you're emulating a lot of the leadership styles that we would complain about together. Well, we were on site. You're in a leadership position. And then he started to tell me about how this guy always shows up late and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, you're making excuses. You're making excuses. I'm telling you as an outsider, and I'm your friend. If you would make a comment like that to me, professional on site, field in front of other people, I would be upset. That is demeaning. You are highlighting that I made a mistake. If you want to talk to someone privately and say, hey, look, you didn't do this right, I want you to come with me.

Lia (00:26:27) - I'm going to walk you through how to do it right. And I kept challenging the way that he was addressing it. And this is a smart, great, good guy. Like, I know him. I know him inside and out. He is against bullying. He is, you know, all about doing the right thing. But when you're constantly in an environment that's perpetuating a certain style or a certain culture, it's easy to slip right into it.

Talia (00:27:00) - Well, and I don't even think that there's awareness like there are there are statistics out there on like a bullies don't experience, they don't experience themselves as bullies. And in fact, they feel you were mentioned like the class clown or the jokester. You got a mouth on you.

Lia (00:27:18) - Yes.

Talia (00:27:19) - There are so many personality traits and behaviors. I don't even think there's awareness of how people are showing up if it's so pervasive in the culture. And I think when I don't remember if it was, I think it was when Doug and I were on your podcast talking about mental health awareness and the stigma.

Talia (00:27:38) - But there is like, I have a number of female orthopedic surgeons on my caseload that literally are having an identical experience of the hazing and the aggression. And how do we rise into ethical leadership if we value collaboration, cooperation, like emotionally intelligent leadership and development when. That's looked down upon. You look like a pussy, you know, you look what kind of a person doesn't establish dominance. You must be weak.

Douglas (00:28:18) - This kind of goes into that really huge conversation, not only in the circumstances that you're talking about, Talia, but, you know, in general, like, how do we stop this and how do we change it? And, you know, Leah, I must say, with your podcast and your voice and even those micro situations where you're taking on somebody and challenging them, you are making that change. You are making that difference. Every time I stand up for LGBTQ rights or confront something that is a microaggression against my community or the HIV community, I go after it because people are unaware.

Douglas (00:28:49) - I am curious, Leah. You know, obviously we've worked together before. We love you as well, of course. And I'm very curious, like, do you find it exhausting to keep doing because you're the challenger here? It is hard to keep doing it. I don't know how you're experiencing that these days.

Lia (00:29:05) - I feel really distressed. Yes.. That. The only thing that mentioned anything about the circumstances was that one article, and that the majority, especially on the news channels, didn't mention at all those circumstances. And why were some of the potential reasons of why? Right. Because we don't really know. You'll never you never get the full story. But the people that were there that were saying what was going on, that that was not being communicated and. The way that the local is handling it is we're going to provide counseling. And the president, you know, he got Ubers for everyone to get home that day because it was a crime scene and he got them lunch. And I'm like, that's what we're doing.

Lia (00:30:02) - That's what we're doing now. We're going to offer counseling. These guys who obviously no one's saying shit to begin with. Now they're going to start talking.

Douglas (00:30:14) - Leah, did you have an inclination to call those news stations during this time?

Lia (00:30:18) - Oh my goodness. How do you know me so well? I was like, what are they doing?

Lia (00:30:28) - Is this not what happened to.

Lia (00:30:29) - Real.

Lia (00:30:30) - Journalism? Like, why are we not like digging into this and like, again, it's not about blame, okay? It's not about whose fault is it? That is not it. We are responsible as a community. Everyone is responsible.

Talia (00:30:47) - That's right.

Lia (00:30:48) - You have to talk about what are the facts? What do we know? Who was.

Lia (00:30:54) - There?

Lia (00:30:55) - What happened? No one. No one needed to die. These three young guys, they had their whole lives ahead of them. They were working on their craft. They were trying to be electricians.

Lia (00:31:07) - This is a school environment.

Lia (00:31:09) - Where's the breakdown?

Talia (00:31:11) - Right. And it is.

Talia (00:31:12) - It's like this. Silence is violence. We're not speaking the truth. Even the assumptions of what people knew and didn't know and that this wasn't so cut and dry. Oh, Philip had a mental illness therefore dot dot dot. But that there was a lot leading up to it. And it also feel like a really important part of all this is like, what do we do with the vicarious trauma? Like everyone that knew these guys or went to this school or witnessed it or heard about it and like Doug and I literally were obsessed with Bessel van der Kolk, who's, you know, all about trauma and the body keeps the score. But like he has shown that our brains and our nervous systems don't really know the difference between us experiencing a trauma and being that near to a trauma, because it changes our physiological state. And it also can be very isolating. Right. And so it's like there's this community of people that really probably needs each other right now. But when the truth isn't being spoken and nobody really knows how to address it, it.

Talia (00:32:29) - I wonder if everyone is just in this very strange place of feeling alone and isolated and not knowing how to process it.

Douglas (00:32:37) - Although I will tell you, Leah, just based on how your processing today going to vicarious trauma, but also, you know, going to the body keeps the score idea. I think oftentimes when there's something this traumatic, we have this immediate sort of physical and cognitive dissonance or difficulty and the emotions come later. But this is a massive, you know, when you ask the question, Talia, like, what do we do with this? Exactly what you're doing, Leah, you have to express yourself. You have to express what your experience is. This is a long recovery process. And because there is a community, hopefully everyone is talking. What I wonder about, though is because, you know, the word victim is a tricky word here. You use it really beautifully in the way that I think is appropriate. There are lots of victims here, but there are going to be people who have their opinions on this.

Douglas (00:33:22) - Right. And that debate should not be a part of grief process. Everybody should be able to have their experience safely and openly and be able to express their grief, their anger, their sadness, their denial, their shock, their their understanding of what happened. It's a really complicated matter. But, you know, going to the question of how do we manage this? We talk about it. So, Leah, we are so impressed that you reached out to us, so honored, honestly, that you reached out to us at this time of when everybody is trying to sort through their emotions and their circumstances.

Lia (00:33:50) - That's what you do. You go to the professionals.

Lia (00:33:53) - Okay, I.

Talia (00:33:54) - Love that you're trying to course correct the narrative, which I feel like is a really important part of healing, right? Because it's like we also have to pay a lot of attention to what we are, what we're leaning into in terms of the narrative. And is it helpful to our healing process, or are we just keeping the wounds open and, and retraumatizing ourselves and others? Right.

Talia (00:34:22) - And so even just to think about how do we really pay attention to do we need a little break from this storyline? Do we need to heal? Do we need to be a part of every conversation? Is it helping me? Is it retraumatizing me so that our self-care is going to be a part of our process as well?

Lia (00:34:43) - Right. I think a more aggressive approach to this needs to be taken because to just be like, okay, we're going to offer counseling. You've already set up an environment where that's not,, easily accepted or you're not going to have people really willing. And I've noticed talk about narrative from. What I was told from people on scene that day to where the story is now going is not one and the same. Yes. So it's it's in human nature. Again, this is not about blame. It is in human nature. We want to comfort, comfort, comfort allies comfort.

Lia (00:35:25) - They. Thank you. Hey, you.

Lia (00:35:28) - We want a label. And it went from, oh my gosh, there was this huge conflict, this bullying, this mental health tragic incident to this weird guy who stabbed these poor other victims.

Lia (00:35:48) - And it's so easy to just this, this violent, weird guy, this just.

Talia (00:35:54) - Write them off, cancel.

Lia (00:35:56) - And when you do that, that's why this is going to happen again. That's right. When you do stuff like that, this is why this keeps happening.

Talia (00:36:05) - But people want a simple story. They want they're like, oh, this could never happen to me. Because bad guy, good guys. Oh, you make sense.

Douglas (00:36:16) - But I will say that based on how our culture has been in the last several years, with all of the mass shootings and the stabbings and all of these things happening, it waters down the nuances of this. You know, Leah, I want to comment on two,, in two ways about what you said. I mean, there's this bigger societal issue of what do we do with this and what should happen? And we got to make sure that people in charge know to address bullying head on and not be afraid of that because they have their own shit that they bring to this table, right, of avoiding these things.

Douglas (00:36:43) - But you know, the second part of this is it disenfranchises your grief process and other people's grief process to have these stories come out that are not valid, that do not tell the nuances of this? There's no way to process that. And I imagine you're screaming at your TV like, that is not the whole story. That's not what happened. You're not the only one, by the way, doing that. I mean, your people who were there seeing the whole thing, you know, in that article that talked about somebody running, jumping over his legs to get out Phillips legs. And I'm like, what? That must have been like while he is stabbing something. And, you know, I got to be honest, I have this I do this thing about like imagining being there. And I'm like, what? I've tried to pull him off. Would I have tried to intervene? Would I have, you know, we have these. And that's the bargaining phase of grief. Like, I bet everyone is wondering, should I have done something different to prevent all of this?

Talia (00:37:31) - Right.

Talia (00:37:31) - It feels like a communal failure and it doesn't feel like, oh, I should have, I, you know, and the only thing that we can do with that horrible feeling is even just think about like, okay, if I should ever be in a similar situation again, would I do something different? And there is, there was this,, like, I remember when I was in this sociology class in college 5000 years ago.

Lia (00:37:56) - It was this only 4000. I was only.

Talia (00:38:00) - 4000 years ago, but it was Kitty Genovese, I, I forget, I don't remember what I had for lunch yesterday, but I remember Kitty Genovese from 25, and it was a story where she was raped,, in front of this big apartment building on a summer's day. There were like, oh, I see people looking out the window watching this, and everybody assumed someone else was doing something about it. Not a single person did anything about it. No one called the police. Everyone just went on with their lives.

Talia (00:38:33) - And it is. Maybe there is a certain amount of like, guilt that we need to have individually to just say, like, we can't assume someone else is going to take care of this. What can we do to like Doug always says, if you see something, say something. This is that chance. Like you have to be brave enough to say like, this is not okay. I don't know that anything horrible is going to happen, but this is not okay. I don't want to be in an environment where I see this, or this person isn't sticking up for themselves, and this is ugly.

Douglas (00:39:08) - And the sad pieces, this is so pervasive at this point. And I think, you know, we're from the area where George Floyd was murdered, and I know people who were there that day whose second guess, should I have pulled that cop off? Should I have pulled there something off of him? Especially those three other cops who are indicted at this point as well. Like, what could I have done differently? I mean, but, you know, it's not a fair question.

Douglas (00:39:30) - You know, there's this immediate rush of adrenaline. I can't imagine watching somebody being murdered in front of me. And when you're about 40 people in that setting, it's really something.

Lia (00:39:41) - Unfortunately, I'm going to run out of time. This is such a big issue. Thank you guys so much for being here and just being able to sit down with me and have a discussion about it. It's so important. I feel that people in these schools need to reach out to professionals like you talk about game plans, talk about how to address these things and all the different nuances.

Douglas (00:40:07) - Thank you Leah, and please take care of yourself as well.

Lia (00:40:10) - I want to thank Doctor Talia Jackson and Douglas Jensen from the Webinar Fame podcast for taking the time to join me today regarding this tragic event. Discussing mental health and its importance in the skilled trades and construction industry is extremely important. The Sparky Life Podcast is dedicated to improving construction industry, elevating the trades and creating safe spaces for all of the sisters and brothers in the industry.

Lia (00:40:47) - I hope in the event of this tragedy, we can come together to try to ensure an event like this will never happen again. It's all about creating the environment you wish to live in. Thank you for joining us. If you felt a spark in today's episode, I.

Lia (00:41:10) -I Invite you to write a review. I'd love to hear what lit you up, take what resonates with you, and if you'd like to hear more of the Spark Life, please subscribe, like, follow and share. Until next time, create the sparks in your life.