Changing the Narrative About Therapy In Skilled Trades

In this podcast episode of the Sparky Life, host Lia Lamela discusses the importance of mental health in the construction industry. Joined by guests Dr. Talia Jackson and Douglas Jensen, they explore the benefits of therapy and challenge the stigma surrounding it. They emphasize that therapy is not just for those in crisis but can support personal growth and well-being.

We also discuss the misrepresentation of skilled trades and the need for empowerment and validation within the industry. They encourage listeners to invest in themselves through therapy and self-reflection for improved mental health and a happier life.

Connect with our guests WE'RE NOT FINE Links: https://linktr.ee/WereNotFine
facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100087904697596
website: https://werenotfine.com/

Connect with us: @sparkylifeoflia
Sparky Life Supports: Raya Kenney's Foundation Women Who Worked on the Home Front Memorial

Be a part of history!
National Memorial to the Women Who Worked on the Home Front Foundation

Here's Raya and a little about her memorial
Congress approves Women Who Worked on the Home Front Memorial

Here's the link to donate.
https://marnie-kenney-sfg2.squarespace.com/checkout/donate?donatePageId=63d1d506217f9e44111ecfea

Apply for Skilled Trades the Mike Rowe Scholarship:
https://www.mikeroweworks.org/scholarship/

We support financial advancement for the skilled trades community.  You can reach out to Jennifer Markwell at Platinum Wealth email Jennifer@PlatinumWealth.net
website www.PlatinumWealth.net

Music by https://www.purple-planet.com

Transcript

Lia: Welcome to the Sparky Life Podcast. I'm your host, Lia Lamela, and here we create the sparks in our lives. Join me on this electrical journey where I highlight skilled trade tales and construction career opportunities with those I've met along the way. Thank you for joining for Trade Tales continued. Today on the Sparky Life, we have two amazing guests, hosts of the podcast We’re Not Fine, Doctor Talia Jackson and Douglas Jensen. As you might know, I am passionate about the importance of mental health. I have been a part of NAMI, the National Association on Mental Illness, since the age of 12. Therefore, I am intent on breaking stigma in construction community around mental health. I have noticed throughout my journey becoming an electrician, a lot of my coworkers aren't open to the idea of mental health counseling and all the incredible things these practices can bring into your life. In the construction world, it's looked at as a weakness, which I can't wrap my head around, especially because to me, mental health is the same as physical health. Most people wouldn't look down on working out or eating the proper foods in order to make your body strong. Why is it that taking care of your mental health and your mind for self growth, development and creating resilience, why is that looked down upon as a weakness when it's so clearly a strength? Doug and Talia break down mental health topics on the episode today in hopes to reframe the conversation around wellbeing and support in the skilled trades. Therapy doesn't have to be about being in crisis or needing to fix. It can simply be for those that desire to further develop themselves. We all have negative messages we tell ourselves about our lives, our careers, etc. The mark of developing a healthy mindset is the courage to examine these messages and challenge them. So welcome with me, the professionals, Dr. Talia Jackson and Douglas Jensen. I tell a lot of my coworkers, you know, about mental health and counseling. And because they're in construction, they're like, you know, like they don't want to. They're like, Why? You think something's wrong with me? There's something wrong with me. Like, immediately it's defense. And I'm like, No, it's just, if you love self-growth and you want reflection and introspection, like really having a counselor, a psychologist, having somebody that cares about the human mind and understands it and loves self development and self exploration, you can really excel quickly and discover things about yourself that you never knew. And whenever I tell them this, they're like, Woo woo.

Talia: Well, I know. I mean, there's such a stigma. I feel like so many people feel like it means I can't figure this out on my own. I have to tell my private problems to a stranger. No one can help me figure this out. This is my stuff. And what will people think of me? But like, if you think about the idea that it's just this, like, collaborative relationship where somebody who's probably seen everything there is to see, heard all the stories, here's what helps, what doesn't help, can put their heads together with yours, and all of a sudden there's this collaborative team that has a vision and ideas that are going to work for you. And it's sort of like these are the secret weapons of people who are happy and successful, is they can see their story not just as like, I'm stuck in the bottom of a well, but like, Oh, I see where the choice points are. I see what can be done. And there's also maybe for the first time in my life, someone who actually cares about me, supports me, wants me to do well, and their only agenda is my well-being. I mean, like, you don't get that.

Douglas: Yeah. This is also what I think though, Lia. Like, that's the beauty of We're Not Fine. Like, please write us, because, you know, you can ask anything and we will address it. We would love those questions. But I got to tell you, I think there's a different piece to this that's really important. I think when you approach somebody on this issue and you start talking to them about this stuff, I truly think people get kind of uncomfortable with what's really going on inside for them emotionally, like it's a vulnerable spot. So even asking him about it or suggesting it might be opening that canal, a little bit of emotions. And I think people start to realize, okay, if I start talking, I'm going to start crying because everyone has stuff. Everyone has stuff to talk about, right?

Lia: Yes, everybody.

Douglas: So, Lia, the minute you said it, I'm like, I bet you like, hit a target zone. And he got uncomfortable like, oh my God, if I start talking about my stuff, I'm going to start getting really emotional, so.

Talia: I think everybody's worry is that the floodgates are going to open and they will drown in it.

Douglas: I think that's totally true.

Lia: Well, you hit the nail on the head because how this whole thing started was, we're besties. 

Talia: Oh, lovely. 

Lia: Shout out to stickers. He likes things like stickers. So he was, you know, saying very sweet things like this friendship means so much to me. You've really improved my life. Like being friends with you has elevated me and how I approach things and think of things. I love how you're so into self-development in your books. And I said, Well, you're actually into self development too. When we talk about philosophical things and we talk about construction and leadership and our skilled trade, you're very excited about it. Why don't you see somebody, like see a counselor? And then he got like, what? You think there's some really like, wait a minute.

Douglas: You saw him, Lia, like you looked at him directly, you saw him. And I think, I think that vulnerability, by the way, what a lovely interaction you two have. 

Talia: I love your friendship.

Douglas: Yeah. It's so supportive and so loving and so kind, and how amazingly for you to suggest this for him. But that vulnerability is probably like the minute you put it on him, he's like, What? Me?

Lia: Right. Yes.

Talia: Another thing I think about the, like one way to think about this, and I'm all about the reframe, right? Because if people are really stuck in like rigid ways of looking at the world that aren't really serving them, it's always really good to have a reframe, but that, like most people on their own without therapy, are like, fine right there, you know?

Douglas: No, we're not fine.

Talia: We're not fine. That's our podcast. But that they're like, they're fine, they're surviving. They might be white knuckling it. They might be like, stuck in some old patterns that like, on what, not top priority. It might not be on fire, broken, bleeding. So like, they're fine. But the alternative, like I feel like what you were saying is, it's not just for people that are like circling the drain. It's kind of bumping up people that are surviving into actually thriving, which is something most people don't even think about. Like, yeah, this is okay, but what would great look like? What would healthy look like? What would great relationships look like? What would fabulous mental health look like? What would it look like if I was like, really proud of myself instead of feeling really trapped or whatever it is? It's kind of like a little bump up from good to great.

Douglas: And I would also say that even if people are great, I mean, I would say that therapy is also about maintenance. Therapy is also about making sure that you stay with your head above water. Like I think one of the things that's striking about my 28 year practice is that I've seen people for 28 years, and people are like, Are they just not getting better? I'm like, that's not what they're, Lia, thank you for that amazing acknowledgement. Like, you know what that is? It's about continuing to grow. This is a lifelong experience, and so it isn't necessarily for someone who's in a crisis all the time. It's for someone who just wants to make sure that they are living the best life that they can, which might also be great already, but it can just kind of maintain that great. So I love what you just did in terms of acknowledging that.

Lia: One of my favorite comedians, she does a skit about this, because she is brave and divulges her mental health, and she teases that she goes into the counselor's office and she's like, okay, so we think you have this. And she, and she goes, Oh, wait, so they're not the problem. I'm the problem.

Douglas: Right? 

Lia: It's obviously, you know, in jest and all in fun. And then she goes into, Oh, so now you want my credit card. So it's like this tease that, you know, we're going to keep doing this and you're going to stay in this relationship, right?

Talia: Well, one of the most painful parts that I think people will struggle with in therapy is when they come in and they start talking about all of the other people. And you know how this person treats me this way and that person did this. And these people are all like disappointing me, frustrating me, They're mean to me. Or they're like, everybody is doing these things to me. And then if you have a good therapist, first, they'll join with you, right? They'll connect with you. They'll see all of your beauty and all of your goodness and all the wonderful things about you. But then if they're actually good, they're going to hold up a mirror lovingly. And just out of curiosity, there's zero judgment. But if we can own our part in why our lives don't feel great, that's the beginning of shifting your life. Because if your entire life you're pointing at other people, there is no room for you to feel like you have agency or you can change anything because you're just a victim. And so sometimes, it is really painful to have to look in the mirror and be like, Oh my God, I do this thing, or I keep on ending up in the same relationship? Or, Why am I always disappointed and frustrated? You know, just like, the self-awareness is the beginning of being really healthy and happy. But it's hard. 

Lia: Yeah. And I think what you need to focus on is when you find a counselor or a therapist that has people that have been with them for 28 years, you need to ask yourself the question, Wow, if it wasn't working, if they weren't improving, would they be there for that long? 

Talia: Right.

Lia: Right. You're not going to keep paying for something that doesn't work. Okay. It's not. 

Douglas: Absolutely. And yeah, Lia, I hope not. Right. Like, I think that's a really good point. I hope not. And I also think that, truly I've always said this, if everybody had a therapist in the world that they met with every week, the world would be a better place. Like we would just be a happier group of people. We'd be more content, because we carry so much stress, on that lovely best friend of yours. Even that discomfort when you approached him in this way, of course he wants to talk and that he has questions for you. 

Talia: Like. Like it's. It's fun to talk. 

Lia: Yeah. Yeah. 

Talia: And also, like, imagine if your parents, I'm speaking to, like, everyone on the planet, imagine if your parents had done their work. Like. We would, we would probably be completely different people, right? Or if there are people because if we're, this is what I say all the time, Doug's going to roll his eyes. But like, if we're not doing our own work, then everyone around us has to do our work, because they're impacted by our bad mental health or whatever's happening.

Douglas: I mean, Lia, you're obviously a good example of someone who knows how this process works and what the benefits are of it. But I think once some people start talking, they understand what it really is. And I think therapy has a lot of mysticism around it. Think there's this idea of like this voodoo magic that we do and, you know,I  think we all have different styles as therapists, I tend to be a very direct person and go right after the jugular because people are paying a lot of money to get better. So if I see patterns, I'm going to address it. But I also again have 28 year maintenance people who just really want to check in every week and have someone to talk to. So, who really knows their life history. It is amazing, by the way. Like, I'm so grateful for the people that have had kids and they've now graduated from college in the course of my knowing them, you know, I think that's just an incredible honor and privilege to be a part of these people's lives.

Lia: You know, as somebody involved in skilled trades and falling in love with the marriage of using your hands and mind, when you get to invest in yourself by getting a counselor or therapist, someone to help you, self analyze.

Douglas: Yeah.

Lia: It's kind of like a hidden hero. It really is. Because you wouldn't necessarily think of this category in that aspect. But I do. And the reason I do is because I was mind blown about skilled trades and them being hidden heroes and never understanding them being the foundation of society and how it elevates us. But then my knowledge on the human mind and behavior and the benefits of having that mirror those counselors, those therapists, that's that other piece. Because we're not just physical. It's not just about our environment. It's about understanding our minds and understanding ourselves.

Douglas: Yeah. And I think until we really take that time and, you know, I've seen so many people get so uncomfortable the minute they start talking. I've had people walk into my office the first time and just start crying and they're like, I don't know why I'm crying, but it's just the safety piece of what you just described as well. Like when you have that safe space. And I really think this is an important piece, as we take a look at like when people choose their therapists, you need a good fit. You need to feel safe with that person. You need to know that they really do see you and care about you. If I hear one more story about therapists who fall asleep on their patients, which drives me absolutely crazy and batty, like why would people go back to that? Right. Going back to your comment.

Talia: I can't, I can't watch therapy shows and movies because the way that therapy and therapists are portrayed in shows, I mean, it's so embarrassing, that no wonder.

Douglas: There's some really good ones.

Talia: The Sopranos.

Douglas: Lorraine Bracco on The Sopranos, um, the guy who did Gabriel Burns, I think it is, that did in Treatment.

Talia: I can't watch. I'm too scared, I mean, Esther Perel I adore, but she's actually like doing the therapy, but I'm always so embarrassed because I feel like if that is what people are seeing of like someone with like, questionable ethics, or like, can't even regulate their own emotions, or like super selfish and always talking about themselves or whatever it is. Like they have their own agenda. That makes me so embarrassed because I feel like they're incorrectly representing what could be saving somebody's life. That is not what it's like. And if it is, get out and look for somebody different. And exactly what Doug said. You got to find a good fit that you feel like you can, you know, be yourself in front of that's like rooting for you.

Douglas: Well, and it's interesting. Of course, I'm out visiting my daughter who works in the film industry out here in Hollywood. And the funny thing is, I think that's entertainment, right? Like they put some of these people on TV for that very, very reason. Although these dramas, again, I'm going to go In Treatment. I'm going to go Lorraine Bracco, which, I was just mesmerized by some of what she did and the people who know how to do the storylines, which makes me honestly wonder, like, has someone done their research in their own therapy on like how that dynamic works. And I've always said to my daughter, like, how do they know? How do the scripts know how to do this work? You know, I remember watching the show, I can't remember what the name of it is. Very, very sad show from the East Coast about how, it was so painful. Lots of death. Fire burned down. I can't remember the name of it. But, you know, people know, when people like describe grief really well in these movies, I'm like, somebody knew this feeling. Oh, somebody. 

Talia: Yeah. 

Douglas: So I just really love when people have done their homework on on what's going on. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, we're a little off topic there, but therapists on TV.

Lia: Kind of not, because there's correlations here. The skilled trades are misrepresented in media and film. 

Talia: Oh yeah. 

Lia: Like, it’s bad. That's, that's why we have such a poor image. So it's actually very relatable that therapists and counselors are more often than not, you know portrayed in a poor light.

Talia: Like stigmatized.

Douglas: Yeah. 

Talia: It's funny because like, I forget this sometimes because if you think about like my world, I am surrounded by people who are very, you know what, they, they easily talk about their emotions. They find the mind body connection to be very important and real. I'm like, my friends are all into self development and growth in my world. Like, I talk to clients, they're clearly sitting in my office because they believe in it. So sometimes, I forget that there's this stigma and like, I wonder about the trades and how like, it feels to even, does it feel like the stigma is coming from the outside, or does it feel like it's like, within the construction world that people are feeling like they're not enough? Or is it like, we're feeling good, good about what we're doing. This is the foundation of society and we're creating beauty and solid structure for all these people. But then there's like my mom and dad feel a certain way. I mean, I'm curious about what it's like on the inside.

Lia: Okay. I'm about to geek out. Here we go. 

Douglas: I love this, geek away!

Lia: So when I entered the electrical field, yeah, it was vital in my self growth. I am so confident. I love myself in a way that I have never loved myself. I am so decisive, I'm so creative and tapped into my innovation and can easily pivot now and accept change now in a way that I never did before. And when I was watching myself kind of blossom, for lack of a better description, through this process of working in the skilled trades, I'm looking around me and I'm like, Tigger in the room, okay? And everyone else, the majority, okay, I'm air quoting here, guys. The majority are Eeyores. Yeah. 

Douglas: I was wondering who you were going to pick.

Lia: What is going, why is what's happening to me not happening to them? What's what's going on? Is it because I haven't been doing it as long as them? A part of me is like, No, I don't think that's it. Because I also speak to thousands of people in skilled trades because of Sparky Life, and I find that many of the women experience what I'm describing. But the men don't necessarily experience the same thing. And I think this comes down to that, there's, number one, the stigma that skilled trades is less than, not important, not a desirable career path. And men who typically, and please correct me if I'm wrong, because you guys are the professionals here. So, you know, men are supposed to provide; their careers, they're, they're, they're the ones that typically bring home the bacon, so to speak, And if they're treated like their jobs or their status. Right. Status is also very important, typically with males. And again, I'm talking in generalities here, this is not absolute. That, if you're, if your job is not considered high status and if you're not considered a provider because your job is not considered high status, and you're looked at as a number or not desirable, that would definitely impact my self-worth and validation and feeling. 

Douglas: Yep. 

Lia: Now, women in this skilled trade aren't viewed this way. We're viewed more of a curiosity, a fascination, because we don't have the same societal responsibilities. And it's not that we don't have struggles, but our struggles within the skilled trades are very different than the struggles that the men typically go through.

Douglas: You know, I would say, go ahead, please, Lia.

Lia: I just wanted to mention, I talked about this study before, I read up on because, then, now that, now there's this very big difference. Right? So being a curious Kitty, I've got to understand why this is and not only why I want the men to feel what I'm feeling like this incredible. Like you need to have this, right. So I touched on this study by Dr. Kelly Lambert, and she talks about rats and fruit loops and motivation and how, you know, our motivation comes to us and functions within our body and the brain chemistry of it. And there's this deep connection with building and using your mind, having effort, right? A lot of effort to create something. That being said. Where do you think the breakdown is? Well, first of all, do you agree that when you work with your mind and your body, that is going to bring a healthy mindset, great mental health? And let's start there. Like, is that something that you've seen?

Douglas: Yeah. I want to go back to a couple of comments you made. First of all, it would be ignorant not to assume that society has conditioned men and women to be different. Right. And so I think there's a part of this that is very important to recognize that, yes, I think that there are societal influences. I am so hopeful that this is changing. You know, I have a child who's a millennial, I have a child who is Gen Z. I really do hope that this is a changing dynamic and that we see it differently. I'm going to also own just in general about this entire recording and episode, that I have such a tremendous bias toward the benefit of having a great electrician in my home. I have a nice I, I have this totally different point of view on this, I'll tell you, like my, my home was built in 1904. I had the entire plaster removed so new electric could be put in. And I watched these brilliant people who knew how to navigate my lathe and my, my plaster and all of the work that they did. I'm also going to tell you, and I won't use him by name, but there's one of my electricians that if I need something explained to me, because I don't get it. I'm a smart person. I'm a dude, I don't get it. And so I literally will say to him, I remember the day I walked up to him and I said, Why can't I have these outlets on my mantel of my fireplace? This guy explained it to me and I just stared at him. I'm like, I don't know how you knew how to talk to me, but I understood everything you just said. And so, Lia, It's like finding a therapist. I kind of want to say I feel incredibly grateful to have great electricians. So I have a very different point of view on this. And frankly, male, female, I could give a shit.

Lia: Yeah, that's fantastic.

Douglas: You know? And so for me, I'm like, I'm so grateful for people who know this trade, who do it well, who make my home. I just want to say, make my home feel safe for me and my family. Like I feel like I'm not at risk. By the way, my electricians did say like some of your wiring should have caused a fire a long time ago. I'm like, oh, God.

Lia: Yeah, you would be shocked.

Douglas: I believe you. Like, I really believe that you come across it a lot. But Lia, going to your question about like mind, body connection and, you know, using your hands, etcetera, you know, art therapy is a thing, right? And so people who paint or people who get out of their heads, people who use, who make pottery, people who do electrician work, people who work out, I mean, lifting weights. Right. Like I think there's so many ways. And so I 100% support what you said. There is absolutely a mind-body connection related to like, using your hands and getting out of your head. And, you know, I train jujitsu to get out of my head, because when you're trying not to be choked or submitted in some way or, you know, having an armbar put on you, you are constantly not able to be in your head. You have to pay attention to your body. So that whole idea of getting out of your head and using your hands and being tactile is a really important part of staying healthy. So I'm a huge advocate for it. I love how you describe it.

Talia: I also, like, I have so many thoughts about it. And also, just like Doug, it's like this is why it's confusing for me with all of the stigma, because I don't experience that at all. I feel like we would not be able to have what we have without people in the trades. And, and honestly, we got our kitchen done a year ago. There is not a day that goes by that I don't look at the craftsmanship and the art of it. And how have people figured out the physics and the engineering and the perfect slide of the, whatever it is, I just feel like that is a kind of brilliance that I don't have, but like some of my thoughts about the mind and body, like what Doug was saying, it's so real, when you can just get into what you're doing, and you, some of people's best thinking and brilliant ideas happen when you're working with your hands. There's also this incredible satisfaction I'm picturing, at least when I'm working with my hands, to see something progress and then the closure and just the wonderful feeling of the finished product of a job well done and something that works and brings value and joy to people, but also think that maybe what's missing in with the stigma and the self-esteem is that there aren't role models.

Douglas: Rosie the Riveter.

Talia: Of really good living, like this is a good living. I am so proud of myself. I'm so proud of our team. I'm so proud of the work that we're doing. Just this level of pride and valuing the people on the team. I think that would make such a huge difference when creating a culture of making everyone feel valued and just like a whole person. So in terms of just like feeling good about your work, if you change your narrative about your identity from somebody who might be feeling really, I don't know, trapped in something or judged or not enough, another reason why therapy can be really helpful or having a really loving friend or role model is that idea of an empathic witness to like look at your facts and your whole story and be like, Wait, wait, wait. What are you saying about yourself? Like, this is how important you are. This is how beautiful the work you're doing is. And if someone like Yulia walks in with this like, swagger and pride, I think that that is infectious. It's like a contagious energy of, we are so fucking amazing. Like, why? I mean, stigma. I'm telling you, you know, when you're a psychologist and you walk into a cocktail party, it's not exactly like, Oh my gosh, you know, people are like, Oh, are you psychoanalyzing me?

Lia: Oh, yeah, I bet.

Talia: But it's just like you're in control of that narrative. So, like, find your role models and remind yourself that you have choices, that if you can't get out of this in this moment, get into it. Like, figure out a way to make it more fun for yourself, to connect with your coworkers like you were saying, that makes all the difference in the world. I think.

Douglas: You know, Lia, going back to your question about, you know, do we think that it's helpful to, like, use your hands and get out of your, your mind a bit, one of the things that you've eloquently kind of described in your own process is that you listen to yourself and you found yourself drawn to this discipline and you found yourself drawn to this trade and I love when you said like, is it just that I'm new at this, that I don't have that disconnect from happiness and joy and in my in my trade and pride in my trade, I think you listen to yourself and I think you're in the right thing. And so going specifically to your question about like, does this work, from the mind body connection for you, I think you figured it out. It's a great fit for you. Like you probably have listened to yourself so many times when you're like done a hard day's work or you like you figured something out that other people can't, or you got the wire from the upper level to the lower level, which I don't know how that happens. I don't, I don't know how a fan gets put in the middle of my room magically. So I look at what you do and I think you have discovered that that use of your hands and that physical kind of exertion that you have is really good for your mental health. And that's what everybody has to kind of think about as they explore this career.

Lia: Wow. Wow. Amazing. Okay, so you guys said some really amazing, impactful things that I think are imperative to pivoting the construction culture and embracing and elevating it, especially when you touched on having good role models. So it's like a running joke that if you haven't been arrested, if you're not an addict or if you haven't gotten a divorce, you're not an electrician. That's really shitty. 

Douglas: Oh, that's terrible. That's ridiculous.

Talia: That's not an inspiring self-image. If you're if that bar, you know, is real low.

Lia: Yeah, yeah.

Douglas: Yeah. I can't imagine.

Lia: I noticed that when I give the guys compliments, they have a really hard time taking them and, and accepting it. So, you know, I don't think they realize how valuable the strength and the mind are and how impressive it is. They act like athletes, like athletes. The tools are an extension of their body. I'll say to a coworker, I'll be like, Oh, you're hulking out, you're hulking out. And they immediately go to, Oh, like I'm mindless and dumb. And I'm like, Do you not know who the Hulk is? He's a scientist. He's a genius, that then becomes this ultimate physical strength. Like you're, you're missing the connect here.

Talia: Lia, that is exactly what I'm talking about with like, the empowered narrative. Like, it makes all the difference in the world. You can look at the same exact fact and feel completely inadequate, dumb, never reached my potential, my parents are disappointed. Oh blah blah blah blah blah. Or you could look at the same exact facts. It's like re-narrating your story has nothing to do with blowing smoke up your own ass or like, you know, bending the truth. All the same truths, in fact. But seen in a completely different light of like, the strength and the genius and the athleticism and the physics and the engineering and the science of like, that understanding who you are and what you're doing. You walk differently, you laugh differently. You connect with people differently if you're not stuck in low self esteem and like this yucky shame feeling, if you start like being a little more Tigger, a little less Eeyore, right, it's like that, but that's what I'm saying. Like that narrative is infectious. If, if that's like changing the culture, if people start seeing themselves a little bit differently and show up with swagger and pride, everybody around them is going to feel like, wow, I'm a part of this really amazing group. I love our group. I'm really proud of what we're doing. We rock.

Douglas: Well, and it's interesting, Lia, when you talk about like, that person's immediate kind of reaction to your comment, like you're hooking up, like there was an immediate defensiveness, they automatically assumed that you were being critical in some ways, which speaks so much about that person and not you. I mean, I love the comment, by the way. And I love the Hulk in every Avengers movie there is and everything Marvel. And so I'm like totally into it. But I, I think it speaks so much maybe to some internalized sort of like, belief system that this person that you said that to has like. And I think that's part of what we're talking about is like, you know, and everything you said, Talia, about like feel differently, reframe, create a different narrative, feel empowered and hopefully have gone into this discipline with your eyes wide open about why you're doing it. I think we should all be incredibly happy with our careers. And so I think really being thoughtful about how we spend our time, which you have been, Lia, that's why I'm so I'm so loving this, and I love how you talk about being an electrician. I know your story very personally from our own podcast that you were on, and so how you got to this place in your life is so thoughtful and mindful and listening to yourself and, and really therapeutic for you, clearly. So as you approach these other people about this, you might run into men and women both who have sort of an internalized negativity about themselves in this field, which is too bad.

Lia: Yes. And it breaks my heart. It breaks my heart.

Douglas: I bet it does.

Lia: I have a doozy of a challenge for you guys. Okay. I'm really going to make you work. 

Douglas: We're, we're ready. We are ready for it.

Lia: Okay. So because the majority of skilled trades and this is this is specifically in America, I want to be clear on that. I've found out recently that in many countries they don't have this stigma. Some do, but the majority of the other countries don't. So in America specifically, they're getting it in the media, they're getting it from their parental figures, they're getting it from their outside friends. Right? So you have all this negativity telling you your job is useless. You couldn't get anything else. You couldn't do anything else. Bottom of the barrel. You must have a drug issue. You must be a criminal. And let me tell you, that sigma's there for a reason. And there's a reason why that happened in the skilled trades, why a lot of people with a criminal backgrounds or difficulty with substances walked into the skilled trades. That's a whole separate issue. We'll go into that another time. 

Douglas: We're in. 

Lia: But that being said. How do you change your story? What tangible acts can I do to combat that amount of negative environment?

Douglas: I got to tell you something, Lia. One of the first things that comes to mind is kind of what therapy is about. I mean, a lot of people, right.

Lia: Oh, look at that. What a coinky-dink.

Douglas: Like you spoke to two therapists about the reality of, kind of what we do. Because really, Lia, it's like and I got to tell you something, I was thinking as you were talking, I just want to make one off comment before I answer more. Like, one of the things I wonder about is how customers treat people who come into their homes. Like, I come in and I am overwhelmed and I am intimidated and I don't know what I'm doing. And so I look at these people like the magicians that know what they're doing that I don't know. So I'm like, Why are you doing that? Why are you creating a new circuit breaker for me? Why are you doing this? I don't know. Like, I'm fascinated with the whole piece of it that, you know, that I don't know. Similar to therapy, I know what this looks like. I know what I'm doing. After 28 years, I never fear what comes into my office. But going specifically to your question, like how do people change that experience that they're having? Of course, people come to therapy and one of the first questions I ask is like, what brings you here? Like, what are you, what are you hoping to achieve by this experience? And Lia, 100% of the time there's going to be some sort of transition that people are looking to make or some sort of reframe or some sort of way that they can take all of that experience and do it differently. So I would encourage people to really take a look. And I'm someone who's very psychodynamic in my theoretical framework, so I find myself really wanting to take a look at every factor of their lives. I go back to family of origin like, what were your models? What were your learnings? What were your experiences? Do you have any trauma in your life that might be impacting how you feel about this? And so, taking a look at all the variables becomes a part of it. But then really getting to a place where you can find yourself looking at alternative ways of thinking, being etcetera. But I always tell people the goal of therapy is to live an honest life. And so people have to really kind of dig deep and get in touch with what's honest and true and authentic for them. And when people do that, Lia, I mean, that's where that gold is for people to say, I am living my best life. I am living my honest life. And by the way, electrician work is not going to be for everybody, as you know.

Lia: Yeah, no, of course.

Douglas: Yeah. Right. So there's a part of me that says move on If this is not the right field, frankly, a lot of therapists should move on from this field. Yeah, you know, there's people in every field that should not be in their circumstance. And so going back to it, like, feel pride about this and get yourself to a place where you've been able to really take a look at like, why am I doing this? Is this the right thing for me? Am I replenished by it? So it's really about digging deep into those internalized negative messages or distorted messages that may call them about why people experience what they do. I love that you love that word distorted.

Lia: I do.

Douglas: Because it's a big piece of our experience growing up, right?

Talia: Yes. I love what you said, Doug. I always do. You know, and I, we got in trouble at the very beginning of our podcast, so our initial producer would be like, Let me guess, you agree with everything Doug said.

Douglas: Why would you not?

Talia: That's not interesting at all. Like, so. But really. Like, I'm thinking about that narrative piece that is so important, like and I think that people don't even realize how much they get themselves into this and negative groove of how they're thinking about themselves, how they're telling the story of their own life, how they got there, where it's like, if your story is one of I'm stuck, I couldn't achieve what I wanted to achieve, I'm a disappointment, right? And you look at all of those same factors and you start to talk to yourself a little differently and you start to tell your story a little differently. Right? Because there's always the Eeyore vibe also, is a little bit maybe of the victim. A little bit of the grass is always greener on the other side. Other people are making more money or they have these high-powered, whatever it is. But if you start to even shift the dynamic of like, looking at that of like, okay, so I get to work with my hands, listen to music, maybe like, be outside in the fresh air. This affords me, like I'm getting my outside time, I'm getting my exercise, because of this paycheck, I get to do A, B and C, because of this work I'm in. These are the flexibilities that I have. This is how I'm contributing to the world. And if you're feeling like it's a little empty or you don't want to be the behind the scenes person, I promise you that the relationships that you're creating with the people around you on your team or the people that you're doing jobs for, we are so incredibly grateful. We want those relationships. We value you. We think you're brilliant. We don't understand how you're doing what you're doing. We can't do it. So if you're walking in to any scenario with an assumption that people are seeing you a certain way, there's this self-fulfilling prophecy thing that happens where, like, if you walk in and you're looking down and you're kind of like, Oh, how nice for you, that you think I'm this and that. Like, it doesn't have to be that way. Like, you could walk in standing really tall, assuming that whomever you're working for is so incredibly grateful that you are there, so lucky, so happy, you're doing something we don't know how to do. You're solving our problems. You're fixing issues we can't fix, you know? Then all of a sudden there's a different energy. You're starting to, like, make a connection with a human that really values you. And then you start to have a different kind of self esteem. So even just to, like, understand who I am and what I'm contributing and how I'm capable of making this a better environment. That might be your little part in it.

Douglas: I also want to add something to this that's really important as we're talking about this. It dawns on me that as a gay man or as a person who has survived what you have, Lia, and you know the work that you do, and Talia, your own personal experiences, one of the things that we have to do is stand up for ourselves and again, like hold, hold ourselves accountable for having good boundaries and expecting to be treated well. And so I find myself, when you talk about family, or you talk about, or bring up customers, or you talk about the media and the social, you know, impact of like what we've internalized about our trade or our jobs, regardless of what we do. If somebody tries to diminish us, if somebody, you know, talks down to us, we have to confront that. We have to address it directly so that we don't let that, you know, permeate our soul and our being. And so, I would say that the other piece of this is when family starts to diminish or somebody starts to have a reaction about, you know, hulking out or whatever, or you know, some customer gets, you know, starts treating you poorly or doesn't, I don't know what, there could be so many ways that people talk down to people. You have to say, So I want to, I want to clarify what the communication needs are for me and really stand up for yourself and tell people I do not like how you're responding to me. I'm really proud of what am, I I'm proud of what I do. And you have to stand up for yourself and address those things. Because if someone treats you badly, if those messages come at you and again can speak to so many things, whether it's about being women as you are or whether it's about being gay as am, like we have to be able to say, that's not acceptable to treat me that way. So part of it is expecting the world to treat you in a positive way too, and standing up for yourself is so golden when it comes to feeling good about yourself.

Lia: Yes. Yes. Well, this unlocks many things. That's why there's always this kind of animosity towards engineers, because, many a time, the engineers are college grads who have never picked up a tool and they primarily operate off of these computer programs. And I can't tell you how many times I've seen an electrician tell an engineer, this is not going to work. And the engineer completely disregards what the electrician is telling him, because he feels he's a college grad, it works in his program, maybe it worked before on another site. And this little electrician doesn't know what they're talking about. And I've also seen this in the medical field, where nurses will go to a physician and say, hey, we should actually do this. And the physician dismiss. And here is the key. Whenever someone is doing the activity over and over and over and over and over and over and many different situations, they're the ones that are going to have a better perspective on what will, quote, work or not work. 

Douglas: Yeah. 

Lia: So really great leaders or really great teams, I find, are the people that will listen to the person on the ground, so to speak. Right. And he'd or work with what they're telling them.

Douglas: Which makes total sense.

Talia: And when I'm picturing is that what you're seeing is there some sort of less than, greater than hierarchy? 

Lia: Oh, yeah.

Talia: But what you're suggesting is that it's much more collaborative and that people honor each other's lived experience.

Douglas: I mean you're doing the work in this particular situation. By the way, the mother of my children, who's a nurse, would really love that comment that you made about the healthcare industry. And so, you know, I'm going to make sure she listens to this. But I will tell you, I think this is going back to what I said, like you should expect to be talked to in a way that is respectful and regarding of what your strength is and your skill is. It goes back to my electricians. Like I waive all knowledge of everything. Like, please tell me why that can't happen, you know, in whatever way. Like I'm curious about it. Like I admit that I'm someone who wants to know how things work. So I'm, you know, and I think it's so interesting how a house is wired and electricity is just fascinating to me. So I ask questions. But if somebody is disregarding you, if an engineer is disregarding kind of what your, your bottom line is, you are the people making it happen. So it is collaborative. It has to be collaborative and I am assuming that you have found people that you enjoy working with as well. Which brings me to like, you know, surround yourself with those people who regard and respect and honor what it is that you bring to that table and do regard the collaborative effort. 

Lia: Yes. I would love to hear you both give an idea on how to approach regarding soft skills, because here's another toxic cultural construction thing that I come up against constantly. There's this idea that, well, I need to make it hard for you. I worked on a construction site, no boots, safety. I didn't do safety. I was up there, and never tied off. And there's this mentality that they get from an imperial structure and this military mindset without the key, right? So like, yes, it's important to create struggle, but you don't beat someone down and watch in amusement and let them figure out how to handle it. You're supposed to create a struggle, which, you try to guide them for themselves to find a solution. And then if, if they need to tap in, if they need guidance, you step in and help to guide them until you can get them to a position where they're in a struggle themselves and they can figure it out. And the guys don't see this. The men in particular are very fond of like, hazing, or really beating on the apprentices. 

Douglas: Yeah. 

Talia: Yeah. 

Lia: Or each other.

Douglas: Lia, you know, one of the things that that Italian do in our work is obviously we provide scripts for people. We provide communication strategies. And I'll tell you something immediately, I find myself thinking, if I were in that situation, I would probably say so. I don't find that approach helpful. What will work for me to be most successful here is if you do not diminish me, if you do not make this harder for me, what is going to be helpful for me is if we work together and if I need something, I can ask you. Are you available for that? Like I would just call it out. I would say that's not helpful for me. That doesn't feel like the most supportive environment. And if they say, Well, it doesn't matter, because I went through it as well, Well, you're not hearing me like. And I realize that I'm a dude who feels very comfortable at six foot and you know, with the build that I have, I'm very comfortable approaching people and saying, you know, that's not how it's going to work for me.

Lia: Right, Right.

Douglas: Women need to feel that same empowerment. And I really think that's it. Like, think you should walk in, By the way, Lia, you're so brilliant and so fucking articulate about how you express yourself. So I find myself thinking everyone should be very careful if they approach you that way. Because I think you can hold your own and I think you could take care of yourself and you are a survivor. So I find myself thinking, if you're working with Lia, take heed. Like she's going to walk in and say, okay, that's not helpful for me. Like, we have to talk about how someone else is like, think the general communication strategy. Let somebody know how their behavior is impacting you. So that's not helpful, dude. What would be helpful for me in working together is this.

Talia: I mean, what I'm picturing and of course, I don't know because I've never done a lick of a trade in my life, but…

Douglas: I think we need to. Talia, I think you and I should join. We should go to Lia's worksite and just learn, wear a hard hat.

Talia: I think I would really rock a hard hat.

Douglas: You're gonna rock it.

Talia: It's like, I cannot picture a scenario where if there's a culture of, like, eating your young, which I had talked to so many nurses who experienced that same thing that like, the hazing process and by the time they become the leaders, they also have this feeling of like, well, nobody helped me. 

Lia: Yeah. 

Talia: So it's like a perpetuating culture. But like you can't imagine a scenario if that's the culture, if you're walking into a scenario like that, that you could be like, I would prefer that you treat me like this, right, first day in the job, you know, and especially as a woman. And I mean, I'm also picturing like a, I don't know, especially as a woman, as a man or a woman walking into a scenario where the culture is established. How do you even break that culture down to like, offer a new way of being in the world? I mean, I'm trying to think of like, ways to disarm that system. And maybe it's about trust. Or maybe it's just about like, I have a lot of integrity in my brand. Like, I am my brand. I take my work very seriously. You don't need to haze me in order to help me achieve, like, I'm a really good worker. I'm taking this seriously. I do need some guidance or I would like some collaboration as I'm getting, you know, I don't know, what do you call, like as I'm getting my legs under me as I'm figuring this out because I care about this work a lot. I really want to do well. So I need to know that if I'm struggling, I can just ask you how to do the thing without a lot of drama.

Douglas: Well, and I'm still going to say that, it's about that, though. It's about, I think it's very disarming to let somebody know. So that behavior is not helpful for me. Like, I think just calling it out is really disarming. I also want to remind everybody that sort of bravado really has no place in our world, period, no place in our world, period. And so I think there's a part of this and I've said this to you before, Lia, we as men need to stand up to other men who treat anybody in a diminishing sort of way and stand up for what's right. It is never helpful to haze. It is never helpful to have somebody struggle like that's not the point. What we want to do is teach. Like if my supervisor, when I was becoming a clinician, had said, I'm going to throw you out to the dogs because that's how it worked for me and I'm going to I'm going to let you fail and I'm going to let you flounder and I'm going to let you say stupid things to a patient that, frankly, that's, that's careless and it's careless in your profession to like, I'm, I'm aware that if I saw if I saw in my home somebody treating my electrician's poorly and being like, go ahead, try to figure it out, I'd be like, okay, get out of my house. I want a collaborative, I want a helpful environment. So everybody has to do that. But I think it's disarming, I do, you know, to, to go up to a dude who's doing this and just say, so that's not helpful for me and that's not how it's going to work.

Talia: But it's also talking up a ladder. It's like a person talking, maybe like, to their boss. And this is what gets complicated is that you need to know how to be in a hierarchy, but also push the, the, the trust, the empathy, like the soft skills of building good relationships and building good work culture are like trust, empathy, support, collaboration. So like if you're showing up as somebody who cares about other humans, wants to help, like maybe you're modeling it, like maybe instead of, you know, speaking to your boss or in a certain way or other people, you're just like modeling what it looks like to show up, do good work, be generous with your advice or your help or your collaboration, encouragement. And those soft skills are also contagious. And then people start to feel better about themselves and then they feel a little more generous to like, maybe help out a fellow worker or, you know, throw a nice word in or, you know, whatever that is. And so like.

Douglas: Yeah, I don't and I don't know, like the culture necessarily or how some of this, you know, kind of comes together when you're on a work site. But I also think that it's fair if you can't do that, I tend to be a confrontational person and I'm good with words. And so I can articulate myself calmly and clearly in a stressful circumstance most of the time, not always. For anybody, for anybody who's been a victim of my anger. Um, but I will tell you that, you know, I think it's okay also to say, can I see you for a second? Like if there's a group of people that this is happening in front of, like, I think that's the other piece is that this person might be like creating his alpha territory by doing this he or she, and I think it's okay to say, can I see you for a second privately and really address it privately to not embarrass that person or diminish them or emasculate them in a way, not that they don't deserve to be emasculated, but I think there's a part of this that, I think taking them aside and having a respectful but direct and clear conversation about what the expectations are moving forward, I think that's incredibly disarming. I think people will gain overall a respect from people who stand up. For themselves and create that sort of understanding had, you know, from the get go.

Lia: That's very helpful. It's very clear because when the men on site here stand up for themselves, they, the action then that I see is, Don't fucking talk to me that way. Who the hell do you think you're? Like, that's not standing up for yourself.

Douglas: It's not at all. It's getting defensive. It's insecurity, which I just want to also point out, like anybody who does this sort of hazing or bullying or dominating or controlling or diminishing of the other person, there's some stuff and they need a therapist. So, I mean, I'm just going to say, like, remember, that's always what I, what that's what I always tell people. Like, remember, when somebody does this sort of thing, like anybody who wants someone else to not be as good as they can be in this world has issues they need to talk about in therapy and figure out why they would possibly not want someone to be the best people they can be in this life.

Lia: Yes. Yes. That's awesome. I am very hopeful that the coworkers and guys on site are going to heed some of this information.

Douglas: And if not and you're struggling with it, please let us know it. We're not fine and we'll help you figure this out.

Lia: Yeah, there you go. Now, I'm going to flip the script here and talk about the ladies. There's, there's a little thing. It's different, but same type of issue with the gals. And what it is, is a lot of the ladies start to go on, you know, I have to keep proving myself on every single crew and, the amount of work I put in is never appreciated. And, you know, why would I give it 110% if I'm going to be treated this way? I see a lot of behaviors from the women that remind me of victim mentality, like, Woe is me, I'm a woman. It's so hard. Now, I'm not saying there isn't struggle for the females. There clearly is. Okay. But it's about your approach. The women I see take action like this and think like this, things don't tend to go well for them and they don't last long in the skilled trade. What are some activities, mindsets, behaviors you would recommend for the women in the skilled trades that validate, Yeah, it's hard. You know, everything they say is true. It's not like they're pulling it out of the ass. 

Talia: Right. 

Lia: But to have this, It's their fault that I'm not succeeding.

Talia: I mean, I have. I. So do you. Doug. I know, but, like, I have a handful of women orthopedic surgeons in my practice, and Lia, word for word, that is their experience as well. And I think maybe in a lot of typically male dominated fields, it is this feeling of like, I'm always having to prove myself. I have to work twice as hard and be twice as perfect. But the choices then in that moment are either to say, I give up. I don't want to work twice as hard. I don't want to always be proving myself; or you realize that you are an exception to the rule, that you are incredibly special, that people are watching you in a way they might not be watching others. Others might be, you know, slipping between the cracks. But you are doing something amazing. You are swimming upstream, people are paying attention. It's an opportunity to take your brand and your work very seriously. So if you choose not to give up, then that means that you are willing to put everything you have into showing people your brilliance, your hard work, your grit, and people will notice. It's not like people won't notice. They're expecting this level, like low level whatever, because they're looking at you and making assumptions, and you knock it out of the park. They're going to, it's going to be shock and awe, and they will be really surprised. People are watching. People are noticing, like, don't give up. Just really, be really, stand up tall. You are your brand. People will remember your name. That's what I will say.

Douglas: I will say that, I'm always careful not to speak for women or to understand at all what that experience is, because I think that would be a horrible error. But I also want to say that there is a really clear bottom line for me here, and that, you know, regardless of gender, we are all equal human beings. So I kind of come from this perspective. But we have to remember this. Women are not less than; women are not you know, gay people are not less than; black people or bipoc people are not less than. And so we have a world where I so believe in human equality. And so I would encourage people to take a look at where those internalized negative messages are, or again, distorted messages about like, don't deserve to be here, don't deserve to be treated well, don't deserve, you know, to have equal standing as a female in that environment, specific to your question. And I think we have to take a look at where those negative, insecure moments come from and really challenge those. So I would say like anything like, it's almost like junior high. I always tell junior high people who are struggling, like just fucking be yourself. It is the goal. And it's a really hard concept when people are judging or bullying or seeing you as less than. But we all have to remember, we deserve to be anywhere in this world that someone else is. We deserve to be able to have a wedding cake made by the same people. We deserve to have, Supreme Court recently, you know, of course, a very homophobic and distorted and discriminatory agreement about, you know, you can turn away people because of their love. We mean thank you for the rolling of the eyes. And so as we're talking about, you know, gay clubs in West Hollywood, the thing that I'm struck by about this is, I mean, I just think that that's what has to happen. We have to take a look at our insecurities. And I will tell you, you know, it's kind of like fighting as, you know, a training for jujitsu for me. Like I think a lot of people feel like, okay, how do gay people feel comfortable doing that? Because I feel comfortable doing it, and I'm as equally able to be there and go there for the same reason as everybody else does. Right. And so I think there's a part of this that every woman who feels that way, who does not feel comfortable, has to remember what those internalized messages are and really challenge those. And I'm not trying to diminish the incredibly powerful socialization that has been brought apart, but these men who might treat women in a certain way have to fucking get their shit together and get their head out of their ass and start remembering that everybody is a human being worthy of that, deserving of respect.

Lia: I love it. I love it. 

Douglas: Good. Well, and Lia, I guess, you got to go back to role models. I mean, you are a role model here. Like, I have no question that, you know, when you walk into a workplace that you deserve to be treated with the same regard as anybody else. So I'm loving that you are paving the way in. Even this, conversation in the podcast that you have, you are paving the way for other women to feel empowered and confident moving into this discipline.

Lia: Thank you.

Douglas: You're welcome.

Lia: My, my goal is to change the culture because I find such value in skilled trades. And I want to see the men and the women and any cultural background that chooses to be in skilled trades to be as successful and fulfilled as I have experienced. And more so, go, go to the stars, go to the moon, whatever. 

Talia: I love it. I love it. And yeah, that's exactly what we're talking about with role models, right? Like that is changing the culture. It's introducing a narrative that is just as real as any other narrative, but will lead you to self-esteem, self-worth, satisfaction, a beautiful life, then you can picture this incredible future. Like, everything changes when you change your narrative about who you are, what you're contributing, what your future is going to look like.

Douglas: Well, and you know, Lia, going back to your very, very simplistic comment, I mean it came out of your mouth so easily, to reach for the stars and go for your dreams. I think we as a culture do not encourage people to really listen deeply. And, you know, our podcast obviously is about relationships, right? Like, I think people really have to take a deep dive into themselves to understand, like, what do you really want? And then you have to make a fucking good choice about it, right? Like, listen to that, listen to that chemistry, right? So and so I find myself thinking that shooting for the stars means that you're willing to take a look at yourself, take risks, be honest with yourself, be honest with others, and live an honest life. It really is the goal of therapy. It's the goal of living. 

Lia: Yes. And where can everybody find, We’re Not Fine?

Talia: Anywhere that you listen to your podcast, we’re on all the platforms. It's We're Not Fine. It's relationships and so much more. Every question you could possibly have around mental health. Plus we're kind of funny and we...

Douglas: Are we? Or do we just think that.

Lia: No, not at all. Mind numbing.

Talia: It doesn't even matter. Because if my narrative is my narrative, then it’s cool. 

Douglas: So we're, We’re Not Fine dot com, you know, and literally. Absolutely. If you have any questions, it's like free therapy. Yes. Please give us your questions. Please give us your comments.

Talia: Email us at contact at we’renotfine. And also you could find us on social media. It's Douglas L. Jensen with an E, N And I'm Dr. Like Doctor, it's Dr. Talia Jackson on insta, and then it's We'reNotFinepod on Instagram, come find us.

Lia: All the show notes, all the show notes below. It will be all over the place.

Douglas: Lia, you're the best. You're the best.

Lia: It's my pleasure. It's my pleasure. We're going to run out of time. But if you guys wouldn't mind, I want to put something special that I've been doing every podcast, but now I'm going to transition it to the Patreon subscribers. But I want to get personal with you each individually that you've experienced through your life. What has been the biggest tool that's helped you go where you've gone?

Talia: Okay. 

Lia: Thank you for joining us. If you felt a spark in today's episode, I invite you to write a review. I'd love to hear what lit you up. Take what resonates with you, and if you'd like to hear more of the Sparky Life, please subscribe, like, follow and share. Until next time, create the sparks in your life.